Carson Palmer: Another Manning, Or Leaf?

The following 20-page report was written by Jon Niednagel in 2004.Ai?? Please take note that the old acronyms (i.e. ENTP/fcir) were still in use.

Below is a segment from ESPN’s “Mike and Mikle,” where Jon appeared to discuss Carson Palmer’s future.

“Mike and Mike in the Morning”


Did you happen to see Sports Illustrated (July 26, 2004) article on the NFL? Titled ai???Here Comes the NFLai??i??with training camps opening, itai??i??s time to get the answers to some big

Well, guess what their biggest question was (from a list of 6).

No, it wasnai??i??t the number-2 choice, ai???Can the 5th running back picked in the draft revive the Cowboys ground game?ai??? Instead, it was, are you ready, ai???Can Carson Palmer cut it in Cincinnati?ai???

For those out of the football loop, Palmer was the number-1 pick in the 2003 NFL Draft and won the coveted Heisman Trophy, signing a $49 million dollar deal (a cool $10 mil or so up front). He stands 6ai??i??5ai??? and weighs 245 poundsai??i??possessing a cannon for an arm. Heai??i??s been labeled a canai??i??t-miss quarterback, not only in throwing accuracy but more importantly, a sure-fire NFL future superstar.Ai?? Despite these facts and tributes, Carson is only in his second NFL season and didnai??i??t even play one regular season down last year. No snaps, nada. Why? The Bengals went with veteran QB, Jon Kitna, who had a career seasonai??i??completing over 62% of his passes, passing for 3,591 yards and 26 TDai??i??s (tied for 3rd in the NFL). Kitna was chosen 2003 NFL Comeback Player of the Year. For Palmer, last season was to be a learning experience for the up-and-coming star rookie. He was just following the long tradition of NFL teams giving their new QBs (even superstars) time to learn and adjust to the huge demands of the NFL.

Yet with veteran Kitna having a stellar season in 2003, some now question whether itai??i??s time to bring on the $50 mil man, regardless of how good he is, or may become. Thus, itai??i??s easier to understand SIai??i??s number-1 question, ai???Can Carson Palmer cut it in Cincinnati?ai???

Though we hope this is understood as a claim offered in humility, we at BTI believe we have the best answer to SIai??i??s question. It isnai??i??t based upon speculation, but what we regard as Brain Typing facts. For example, if someone who didnai??i??t know much about trees asked a forest ranger how tall a little 2 foot conifer by the path could grow, the tree novice shouldnai??i??t be surprised if the ranger said 300 feetai??i??for the young Sequoia tree.Ai?? In the same light, we at BTI believe we understand some inborn aspects of people that those in the mainstream have not encountered yet.

Those whoai??i??ve looked into Brain Types (BT) know that BTI Director Jonathan Niednagel (JN) was the lone national prognosticator who predicted the NFL demise of highly-heralded QB Ryan Leafai??i??before he was even drafted in 1998. (For those who donai??i??t know, Leaf was later voted the biggest bust in NFL history!)

Every year JN provides uncanny insights and predictions to those he works for, and sometimes itai??i??s leaked to the media (by someone outside BTI) or makes it to the media after they contact usai??i??and we believe itai??i??s appropriate to respond. In this case of Carson Palmer, JN did not work for the Bengals when they drafted him (nor has he ever worked for them), so there is no conflict of interest in us seeking JNai??i??s insights into SIai??i??sAi?? $64,000. question; letai??i??s make that the Bengalsai??i??$50 million question!

Before we seek JNai??i??s insights, letai??i??s consider yours. If you are a football fan, you must have some ideas as to Palmerai??i??s future. How would you respond to ai???Can Carson Palmer cut it in Cincinnati?ai???Ai?? But before you get too confident in your prediction, what if we were to tell you that your answer must be written down and explained so that there are no misunderstandings when we dig up your answer 2 years, 5 years, even 10 years from now? Weai??i??ll also want to immediately notify all your football buddies and send them a copy of your prediction so they can hold you accountable down the road. If youai??i??re wrong in your forecast, weai??i??re sure they wonai??i??t give you a tough time. Right? Perhaps you can now better empathize with rare people such as JN who risk their national and international reputations on a yearly basis. (JN and BT were recently highlighted in a prominent magazine that went to countries throughout the world.)Ai?? JN is NOT going to be granted the latitude and mercy of football gurus or prognosticatorsai??i??such as a Mel Kiper. Though they will make numerous public predictions, they donai??i??t have to worry about their reputation suffering if they miss on one or many. JN doesnai??i??t have that luxury.

Now back to Carson Palmer (CP) as seen by JN. First, JN wants us all to consider just a SMALL portion of the innumerable accolades and positive attributes (mentally and physically) of Palmer. Entering the 2004 NFL season, CP has a resume that is hard to beat. Even his coaching staff believes heai??i??s unquestionably the man to go with at this juncture for the Bengals. Letai??i??s now look at only a fraction of CPai??i??s seemingly innumerable perceived attributesai??i??physically and mentally:


(All the following statements (except those in red) and quotes are taken from various media sources (mostly major media) in 2003 and 2004. All statements NOT in quotes are from the writers of each article. Those in red are BTIai??i??s comments.)


Scout-team quarterbacks rarely get much reaction, if any at all. But it was common at Cincinnati Bengals practices last fall for players and coaches to shake their heads in disbelief at some of the throws being made by their scout-team passer.

ai???Guys would see him fire a pass and they’d look at each other and go, ai???Did you see that throw?’ ai??? said Bengals offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski. ai???That’s the type of skills he ai???

He, of course, is no ordinary scout-team quarterback, no I-hope-I-someday-take-a-snap quarterback.

He is Carson Palmer, the top overall pick in the 2003 draft out of Southern California, the player the Bengals think will finally put to rest those quarterback demons that have haunted the franchise since the Boomer Esiason days.

Even [2003 starting Bengalsai??i?? QB Jon] Kitna, a class act by all standards, couldn’t help but know last year it was only a matter of time before Palmer took over. Kitna, you see, was one of the many who marveled at the skills of his backup.

ai???He does stuff every day that we wish we could do,ai??? said Kitna last fall [2003]. “Me and Shane (Matthews) would just kind of grin at each other every time he made one of those big-time

“This team is right for Carson because we have offensive firepower for him to come in and have success,” Kitna says.

“He’s got a Marino-like release [said Kitna]. Watching him last year, he rarely went the wrong way with the ball. You don’t see that out of young quarterbacks. “I’m looking forward to watching what he does because he’s going to be everything people thought.”

[Head coach Marvin] ai???Lewis, asked repeatedly at his post-practice news conference [May, 2004] why he made the move to Palmer, made his strongest statement to date. ai???He’s got the most skill and ability of anybody we’ve got in the building,ai??i?? the coach said. Palmer flashed his big-play ability during practice.

“We tested our guys in the 40,” says Marvin Lewis, “and he timed like he was a running back.”

Can you imagine saying that about a 6ai??i??5ai???, nearly 250 lb. QB?!Ai?? For those who donai??i??t know, speed at the QB position is invaluable. (Just ask Michael Vickai??i??s coaches, teammates, and especially his opponents.)

Palmer’s greatest asset is his arm. He has shown in practice he can throw the ball great distances and with great precision.

One team official says Palmer can throw the ball 70 yards; watch him for one practice, and you wonder whether that is an understatement.

Palmer can make every throw. He has more arm strength than Kitna, so the offense surely will push the ball downfield more.

“Carson has Mike Vick, Brett Favre arm strength,” [Bengalsai??i?? All Pro receiver Chad] Johnson says. “What’s amazing about Carson is that everything he throws is on the money. Accuracy is his bread and butter.

“Hey, it’s going to be a long, long season for our opponents.”

“We have a chance to be explosive,” offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski says. “Carson’s got John Elway velocity. He looks a lot like Troy Aikman when Troy was

[At the Bengalsai??i?? summer workouts] “He got the ball in there in some of the zones that I really haven’t seen a quarterback do,” said Ratliff, the team’s first second-round pick. “Just watching him on TV and hearing about him, when you get on the field with him and sometimes you feel like you have a receiver blanketed and he gets it in there, you realize just how good he is.

Palmer has been good about other things too.

The way he throws the ball, for example. Hard. Accurate. Always going where Palmer means for it to go. That’s not to say every pass hits the receiver in the hands. “What I’ve seen,” [Bengals offensive coordinator] Bratkowski said, “is that Carson doesn’t ever seem to throw a bad ball. But he’s still learning the offense. And his receivers.”

Bratkowski continues to tick off Palmer’s upsides. His quick release. His foot speed. His feel for the plays, after only three days [May, 2003]. His positive attitude. His politeness. His toughness.

“He’s one of the best passers on the move and he’s very accurate on the medium-range throws,” said Bratkowski. “But his ability to throw the deep ball really will be a strength we play to with him.”

His dynamic arm, complemented by running back Rudi Johnson and a potentially dangerous receiving corps of Johnson, Peter Warrick, Kelley Washington, T.J. Houshmandzadeh and Patrick Johnson are why Lewis is gambling on greatness a block from Pete Rose Way.


“Nothing has changed with him,” [Marvin] Lewis said when asked about Palmer’s demeanor. “That’s why we picked him. It’s all part of it. Nothing is too big or too small for him. He has a very even keel. We like that about him. He can handle the ups and downs of it and not seem to reflect on it and not have it wear him down.”

Lewis is confident that Palmer will grow into a team leader.

“Quite honestly,” [coach] Bratkowski said, “in our research on Carson, that is something which very much impressed us. With all the adversity Carson had at USC, we never heard anything or saw anything that made us think Carson did anything but handle it gracefully. In our situation, that’s important.”

Carson Palmer wears the title of No. 1 draft pick modestly. He is not weighted down with gold jewelry or a big head. Palmer hasn’t bought fancy clothes or cars or electronics.

Palmer is all about watching, listening, and learning. After every snap, every pass, every drill, Palmer is quick to seek out offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski or quarterback coach Ken Zampese.

“Carson has been very good about seeking knowledge,” Bratkowski said. “You like that in a young kid, especially a guy who’s the No. 1 pick.”

“Film work is the key to success,” said Palmer. “I understand that.”

So even though he spent his rookie season on the bench, he still took home film to watch and put in the extra time.

During the off-season Palmer and quarterbacks coach Ken Zampese analyzed game tapes of every pass coverage that Kitna faced in 2003 and how Kitna reacted to them.

He found other ways to develop, such as studying the game-management skills of the Tennessee Titansai??i?? Steve McNair and the Indianapolis Coltsai??i?? Peyton Manning and running through a five-minute drill at the end of each practice that required him to execute plays against a variety of exotic blitzes.

They worked on the quarterbackai??i??s presence in the huddle and at the line because the laid-back Palmer didnai??i??t have a commanding voice.Ai?? To correct that, he would call plays aloud while walking around his suburban Cincinnati home.

Youai??i??ll soon learn this is typical for CPai??i??s BT.

That is the same old Palmer, the young man with the big shoulders. The golden boy who will always take the blame, say it’s his fault, vow to do better.

Palmer is coachable and eager to learn from veterans. Maybe too eager. Last year, he fell for every rookie prank in the book.

Again, typical for CPai??i??s BT.

For now, Palmer’s friendly personality — he’s from California but you’d swear he was from Peoria — makes him popular.

Palmer interviewed:

You look to have an easy rapport with the guys. Youai??i??re always talking to the guys in the lockers next to you, cornerback Reggie Myles and tight end Reggie Kelly. You had a long conversation walking off the practice field with cornerback Deltha Oai??i??Neal the other day. Do you feel you have to do that kind of stuff in your position?

ai???I donai??i??t feel I have to do it, but I do it because I like the guys in here. I want to talk to them. Itai??i??s not like I feel like its part of my job. I want to talk to Reggie Myles about his fiancAi??e. I want to talk to Reggie Kelly about his new baby. I want to know, not because I need to do

Not your typical NFL QB actions, but normal behavior for CPai??i??s BT.

Do you sometimes wonder if you were still single and you could be like Giants quarterback Jessie Palmer on ai???The Bachelorai????

ai???Thatai??i??s the last thing in the world I would want to do. I donai??i??t know why that guy wants to do

I guess thatai??i??s not your personality.

ai???That guy is

If heai??i??s Hollywood, what are you?


CP is not joking here, even though many canai??i??t believe heai??i??s genuine saying that.

PAINTBALL. Palmer thought it would be great to get teammates together for paintball as a way to forge camaraderie. While other teams go golfing or bowling, once a week, 15 to 18 Bengals park in Palmer’s driveway, hike into the nearby woods, split into teams and go hunting. Each other.

ai???I love it,” Palmer says. “We go full (camouflage), paint the faces. It’s one of my most favorite things to do. I set up strategies. It’s very

Mostly, the laid-back Californian prefers solitude to celebrity. His idea of a big night is dinner and a movie — at home.

ai???I donai??i??t like it when people think athletes are more special than they are,ai??? Palmer says.Ai?? ai???Iai??i??m as normal as anybody except for the fact that I may be better at

“I’m the total homebody,” Palmer says. “I get uncomfortable when I get singled out. I don’t go out a whole lot. I probably could because I don’t think people really know me yet. But I don’t go to bars or clubs or anything. I’m home a lot, and we cook a lot.”

Classic for his BT.

Even inside his own home, he’s so genuinely unassuming that he doesn’t celebrate himself.

The Heisman he won for leading the Trojans to an 11-2 record with an Orange Bowl victory against Iowa remains inside a moving box. It was in his parents’ California home until they bought a place in Boston and his mom shipped the Heisman to him. He has no plan to unpack the defining symbol of his football success.

Imagine Tom Hanks keeping Oscar in his closet?

“It’s just in a box,” Palmer says of the Heisman. “Not that I’m not proud of it. I don’t really want to show it off.”

“I still have everything to prove,” he says. “I just have to go out and do it

Can you imagine the vast majority of other BT keeping their Heisman in a box? Most ESFPs (check website to know more of this BT) would have it out prominently displayed in the front yard.

(end of excerpts from 2003 and 2004 media sources)


By now, you get the picture on Carson Palmer. What ISNai??i??T there to likeai??i??make that LOVEai??i??about the guy??

Heai??i??s too good to be trueai??i??the perfect QB specimen with an attitude of Mother Teresa.

On the one side of the coin, heai??i??s perfectai??i??mentally/attitude and physically. Heai??i??s got all the tools, and them some.

Unfortunately, in the dog-eat-dog world of pro football, thereai??i??s another side to the coin. As Al Davis says, ai???Just win baby!ai???Ai?? Itai??i??s all about winning and being highly competent at your position.

In this respect, there are some areas where Carson Palmer is not innately designed to perform as well as some other QBs (in mental, motor, and spatial skills). JN realizes this sounds almost heretical after listing numerous accolades and assets of CP.Ai?? Despite the above glowing reports, letai??i??s begin by considering how JN perceives Carson Palmerai??i??s Brain Type.

JN LOVES CP and couldnai??i??t be prouder of him. He believes those around CP are in for a special blessing. Even if he werenai??i??t a prominent athlete, heai??i??d be your best neighbor or cherished friend. One reason for this is that JN believes Carson Palmerai??i??s BT is an ISFJ or BEAL in BT vernacular. ISFJ in Jung/Myers terminology is Introverted, Sensing, Feeling and Judging.Ai??Ai?? Brain Typing is more specific in reference to brain function (mentally, physically, and spatially), and it teaches that ISFJ is better understood by BEALai??i??or Back (of brain), Empirical, Animate, and Left (brained dominant).Ai?? For a better understanding of this terminology beyond this article, read more on this web site or for the deepest insight, acquire JNai??i??s book, Your Key to Sports Success.

The end of this article provides a more lengthy description of the ISFJ/BEAL in life overall, but the following brief description provides a rudimentary understanding of this somewhat rare BT:


Concerned with othersai??i?? welfare; friendly, kind, loyal, reserved, patient, practical, responsible, orderly, inquisitive regarding people, harm-avoiding; conscientious, thorough; service-oriented; gross motor skilled.

Though numerous explanations could be given for this brief description, note especially these few observations. One, all ISFJ/BEAL people around the world, regardless of sex, people grouping (which many label ai???raceai???), or other commonly expressed distinctions, possess gross motor dominance. In other words, they use their big muscle groups expertly. Give them a tennis racket or golf club and have them swing or hit a ball and youai??i??ll see for yourself their gross motor prowess (versus fine motor).

Two, ISFJs are arguably the nicest, most humble and concerned for others of all the BT. This does not mean they canai??i??t get mad or demonstrate some aggression when provoked, but they are among the last few BTs to fight back without good cause. ISFJs love harmony with others, wanting peaceful conditions if at all possible. They are also very family oriented, whether it be affection for their own or trying to bring diverse people together to feel like one big happy family. BEALs donai??i??t like being the center of attention, though they like to be at the center of bringing people togetherai??i??attempting to keep their physical presence in the background. Offering them a microphone is not high on their wish list; they much prefer others to do the public speakingai??i??unless they have a passion for an issue. Even then, theyai??i??ll be soft spoken, sincere, and down to earth.Ai?? Theyai??i??ll NEVER be like your philosophy prof in college, continually waxing abstractly or metaphorically.

“We had Carson, Boller and Leftwich all rated right there,” [Ravensai??i?? coach Brian] Billick says. “We were prepared to take any of the three with the 10th pick.

“They each have all the tools. Each had one little flaw. Kyle’s was the accuracy. Leftwich was the mobility. With Carson, it was the leadership. He’s not quite as dynamic a personality as the other two.”

Tough-minded Billick hit the nail on the head and to him, CPai??i??s demeanor was a flaw. Had he and Marvin Lewis known BT prior to the 2003 draft, each would have looked at CP with deeper understanding.

ISFJ/BEAL is the opposite (mentally, physically, and spatially) of the most frequently found BT in America, the ENTP/FCIR.Ai?? (ENTPs are also the most commonly found QB in the NFL; their inborn mental, motor, and spatial skills are very different than the ISFJ.) ENTPs/FCIRs are continually talked about in the news (sports and non-sports issues), whereas the ISFJ/BEAL is usually passed over by the media.Ai?? Not only are few found in professional sports but also they keep a very low profile in society. Though there are far fewer ISFJs than ENTPs, ISFJsai??i?? low numbers in pro sports is disproportionate to the ENTP; ISFJs should be found much more often. What gives? Bottom line, they are not born with the most optimal mental, motor and spatial skills as some other BTai??i??for fast moving sports.

Carson Palmer (CP) is the FIRST quarterback ISFJ/BEAL that JN has ever found in pro football.Ai?? JN has discovered a few ESFJ/FEAL pro QBs over the past few decades but never an ISFJ. JN has found a few ISFJ/BEAL linemen but thatai??i??s it. Thus, is it probable to find an ISFJ pro QB? No, it isnai??i??t. Is it possible?Ai?? Yes, as in the case of CP. You might now be thinking, what might it require for a BEAL/ISFJ to make it all the way to the NFL at QB?Ai?? Good question.

Some of the more prominent factors would include:

–starting football and QB at an early age

–being coached and mentored properly throughout the years (mentally, physically, spatially)

–having good QB size, as well as speed and athleticism

–having a support team around to encourage and direct

–playing on a good college team with competent coaches and players

Carson Palmer had all of these proper stepping-stones, plus others.

Letai??i??s now consider only a few of the many areas of inborn strengths and inhibitors for the ISFJ BT:


Inborn Strengths:

– left-brained dominance enables ISFJ QB to:

* be totally in the moment, seeing ai???what is,ai??? not ai???what could beai??? (no daydreaming)

* pay attention to detail (on field and sidelines)

– notice little things that can make the difference in game

* seek perfection, always trying to improve

* have a high level of self-responsibility and discipline

-Ai?? following through on goals, projects

-Ai?? motivating teammates to not only be starters but finishers

* be an excellent listenerai??i??to teammates and coaches

Inborn Inhibitors:

– left-brained dominance can cause ISFJ QB to:

* to be more focused on the results rather than process (which yields the best results)

* be excessively bothered when throwing an interceptionai??i??more than most other BT

* not let mistakes go, continuing to think about recent mess ups

* try not to make mistakes and play conservatively rather than loose and offensively

* be too concerned with the clock, causing unnecessary pressure

* be too concerned with plays and play calling rather than ai???seeingai??? field and throwing with good rhythm and tempo

– the ISFJai??i??s strong Feeling function can override its logical analysis and clear thinking when succumbing to major pressure; it can manifest itself in many ways

* itai??i??s interesting that CP has said that the funniest thing that ever happened to him in a game was when he twice “lined up to take a snap from the left guard.” Though some other QBs have done similar things, this kind of Thinking and spatial lapse can occur more frequently with certain BT


Inborn Strengths:

– gross motor dominantai??i??expert use of large muscle groups, enabling QB to:

* throw long and hard ball

(L.B. Sensing Feelers (SF) are among the 2 best (of 16) at ai???controllingai??? gross motors movements)

–they can be ai???rock solidai??? in body movements

* run and throw with great body balance and stability

– left-brained dominance enables ISFJ QB to:

* have solid arm/body mechanics and technique in throwing motion

* have a very compact delivery, where the whole body is involved and the upper body does not separate from lower (as it easily can with 12 of the 16 BT)

– non-BT genes, passed along by parents, that make CP fast for a big QB, enabling him to run the 40 in less than 4.7 seconds; this speed will help in getting out of the pocket on pass rushes; he also has big hands

Inborn Inhibitors:

– L.B. Sensing Feelers, when allowing pressure to overcome and create high anxiety

* big muscle groups stiffen, looseness in throwing motion disappears–causing passes to often be short of target

* fine motor movements wane (throws take longer to get off and grip on ball suffers)

–arm action will slow and the ball will lose zip out of his hands

* mobility and speed suffer when muscles stiffen

* fluidity lessens and body becomes clumsier


Inborn Strengths:

– left-brained dominance enables QB to:

* to see a narrower field of vision in an exact way

–when relaxed, needle can be threaded on throws

Inborn Inhibitors:

– left-brained dominance, succumbing to pressure

* inhibits peripheral awareness and 3-D vision–result: QB

*Ai?? will throw picks w/o seeing/picking up nearby defenders

*Ai?? will be blindsided much more often when attempting to pass

*Ai?? excessive tunnel vision; wonai??i??t be gifted in checking down to secondary receivers; will have difficulty coming off primary receiver; will have strong tendency to lock on.

*Ai?? reading and reacting to pass rush will suffer

–Right-brained spatial logic will suffer dramatically, instead, L,B. Feelings will dominate (not good at making quick, spatial decisions)

Now that weai??i??ve considered some of the ISFJai??i??s body traits, what are the odds of Carson Palmer becoming an NFL superstar?Ai?? Not good.Ai?? What are the odds of CP playing some good NFL games? Very good. Yet, the more he can be surrounded by top-notch offensive linemen and receivers, the greater his success potential. The more he can be surrounded by competent coaches who know how to utilize his assets and steer clear of his innate weaknesses, the better. One reason Drew Bledsoe (ENFJ/FCAL) became more successful than many of his BT at QB was that mastermind coach Bill Parcells (ESTP/FEIR) directed Drew very well. For one, at appropriate times he limited the field in which Bledsoe was to throw the ball. Left-brained dominant QBs or ai???Jai???s develop tunnel vision when succumbing to pressure (e.g., Ryan Leaf). Some of the 8 left-brained dominant BT are better than their other ai???Jai??? cohorts with innate vision abilities. Regardless, all left-brained dominant BT are restricted in their QB vision capacities compared to most of the right-brained QBs.

Under pressure, CP will also need to work hard to access his right-brained spatial logic. Itai??i??s not natural for his ISFJ/BEAL inborn wiring and genotype but can improve with proper vision/peripheral training. Though heai??i??s already had many years in football to improve the right-brain spatial circuits, his depth perception and peripheral vision will be taxed if he allows pressure to overcome him. As described above, when BEAL QBs allow pressure to overcome them, they have difficulty checking down to secondary receivers and coming off the primary receiver; they develop a strong tendency to lock on.

If CP can stay relaxed, allowing his gross motor muscles to stay loose and supple, heai??i??ll have big-muscle prowess and throw the ball accurately, with zip and very deep if need be. On the other hand, if pressure overcomes him, his gross motors will stiffen and his dominant left hemisphere will take over, creating short passes that go awry, with mechanical, rigid body movements. As the commentator said about CP after watching one of his throws to a receiver in the July, 2004 CBS TV ai???Quarterback Challenge:ai???Ai?? ai???That was a little bit of a shot-put, not a lot of confidence On the next throw that was short, the former QB and TV commentator said ai???Looks like heai??i??s tentative a little bitai??i??trying to be too perfect. Just let it go!ai??? On the next throwai??i??which was also shortai??i??the commentator said, ai???Definitely tentative, as you can see he tries to short arm it and place it out there. Every coach will tell you, ai???just let it go! Let your ability take ai???

If you happened to see the 2004 QB Challenge on CBS, especially the segment where the competing 9 QBs went in the ai???no huddleai??? offense, you saw CP have some real difficulty, providing a preview of whatai??i??s aheadai??i??if and when he succumbs to pressure.Ai?? The QBs had to throw to live receivers running 4 predetermined routes, actually easy ones at that. Nonetheless, CP demonstrated how nerves can affect the ISFJ when throwing a football.

If ISFJs are not designed to be the top QBs or basketball, baseball or tennis players, or even golfers, then what are they best designed to do in sports. With no disrespect to the ISFJ/BEAL, they have the potential to be the worldai??i??s top bowlers and horseshoe players. Just consider the history and success of the underhand-tossing phenom, Walter Ray Williams Jr.Ai?? His story is outlined below and in YKtSS.

So whatai??i??s JNai??i??s Bottom line on CP.Ai?? JN believes CP can have some very good games, take his team into the playoffs and even conceivably win a Super Bowl under the right circumstances. However, the likelihood of him someday being put in the same fraternity as J. Unitas, Joe Willie, J. Montana, D. Marino, J. Elway, T. Aikman, B. Favre, and P. Manning (the optimal QB Brain Type (ESTP/FEIR)ai??i??are slim.

Remember above when Bengalsai??i?? offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski said: “Carson’s got John Elway velocity. He looks a lot like Troy Aikman when Troy was
And remember Bengalsai??i?? All Pro receiver, Chad Johnsonai??i??s quote: “Carson has Mike Vick, Brett Favre arm strength,” “What’s amazing about Carson is that everything he throws is on the money. Accuracy is his bread and

CP will have the leagueai??i??s best accuracyai??i??when relaxed, but he isnai??i??t wired like any of the 4 ESTP QBs listed above. Their cognitive, physical, and spatial capacities are different than CPai??i??s and their performances over the course of their careers will be different than CPai??i??s.Ai?? CP is not wired to pull rabbits out of hats at the end of games the way ESTPs are. Sure, CP can win come-from-behinders but not as consistently as ESTPs do by their consistently improvisational ways.

We realize JNai??i??s analysis is a radical predictionai??i??forecasting limited upside for a $50 mil, number-1 pick Heisman winner, sizing in at 6ai??i??5ai??? 245 lb. with a gun for an arm and exceptional speed and mobility for his size. Who would bet against a QB with these credentials and tools for stardom?Ai?? Nonetheless, as an arborist or botanist will predict the potential of plants and trees, so Brain Typist JN predicts the probable upside of Carson Palmer.

Does JN realize how far heai??i??s sticking his neck out, how far out on the limb heai??i??s venturing? Absolutely. JN is the ultimate realist and if nothing more, he knows whatai??i??s going on in the world around him.

JN distinctly remembers when he assessed Ryan Leaf (RL) for an NFL team.Ai?? He was told that the top NFL QB at the time said RL was a for sure superstar, the ai???best developed young QBai??? he had ever seen; this was stated after one of RLai??i??s outstanding NFL preseason games his rookie season. JN also remembers one of his closest friendsai??i??and NFL executiveai??i??said that JN had to be wrong on this one. There was ai???no wayai??? RL wasnai??i??t going to be one of the best QBs over the next decade.

To set the record straight, JN says that CP is no RL. They are 2 very different BT.Ai?? CP is the antithesis of RL mentally and in attitude. CP has perhaps the most genuine desire and willingness to comply with team and coachesai??i?? goals than anyone on the planetai??i??certainly as much, if not more, than any other NFL QB. (Quite the opposite of RLai??i??s past behavior) On the other hand, CP canai??i??t change his genetic imprint or neural circuitry; heai??i??s innately designed to perform in certain ways. Sure, he can do much to shore up his inborn weaknesses, but he can only go so far. (This is why ESTPs can be the best QBs; inherently possessive of the optimal genes and brain networks for QB, with hard work, good coaching, and good athleticism, they can rise to the top.)

CPai??i??s and RLai??i??s motor skills are quite different, too. CP, gifted in the gross motors, will use his body in running and throwing much better than RL did, thus ensuring better body stability, greater accuracy, and longer throws (with minimal effort) than RL.

RL and CP do share some similarities, however. They both are left-brained dominant Brain Types, and when pressure overcomes their innate designs, they develop severe tunnel vision and more mechanical body movements. Both traits will obviously be counterproductive to top performance. Yet, some left-brained BT have been very good QBs, especially the ENTJ/FCIL. This BTai??i??s motor skills stay looser under pressure (as NTai??i??s) and they donai??i??t typically get as nervous in the moment as the Sensates (S). The ENTJ iNtuitive usually tunes out the many here-and-now distractions or pressures immediately sensed by the ai???Sai??? Types. (Basketball Hall-of-Famer, ENTJ Kevin McHale, has especially helped JN in their conversations over the years to better understand this BT phenomenon.)

The key for CP is to learn to stay relaxedai??i??especially when the wheels start to come off in a game. Few athletes know how to make the proper adjustments during a meltdown, and ISFJs, in up-tempo sports, can have great difficulty getting back on track. Nonetheless, if CP learns the proper techniques for mental/emotional stability, he can fight off most off the pressures that surely await him.

A few months ago, after being sought out by the media, JN provided some insight into the 2004 NFL number-1 draft pick, Eli Manning. We now offer a few bits of info from that analysis in order to better explain Carson Palmer.Ai?? Portions of it read:


It is correct, Eli’s inborn BT is not designed for QB as optimally as brother Peyton’s. We won’t take the time here to explain all the mental, physical and spatial differences between the two Mannings; suffice it to say, their biggest differences are in the cerebral functions of Extraversion (Front brain) and Introversion (Back brain), Thinking (Inanimate reasoning) and Feeling (Animate reasoning), and their inborn physical strengths of gross motor (Eli) and fine motor (Peyton) movements.

Regarding the newspaper article that covered JNai??i??s evaluation, BTI later wrote: What JN stated and implied is that since Eli’s Brain Type is not as consistently good as brother Peyton’s at QB, especially under big-time pressure and over the course of a career, the odds are against him to match his brother’s prowess. JN also told the reporter specific areas where Eli’s Brain Type wasn’t as proficient as Peyton’s, as well as where it was better.

JN also reminded the writer that although few ISFPs have been regarded as top QBs, fellow ISFPs Warren Moon and Steve McNair have fared very well over their careers. Over his 21-year pro career, Moon was selected to 9 Pro Bowls. (By the way, due to their right-brained gross motor superiority, ISFPs are the Methuselahs of sports. See JN’s YKtSS book for further explanation.) In 2003, McNair was finally invited to his first Pro Bowl after nine NFL seasons. He was also league co-MVP in 2003. These ISFPs have been exceptions, and to ensure success for ISFPs at NFL QB, mobility is a key ingredient. Over the past 30 years, ISFPs have ranked in the top 7 (out of 16) of NFL quarterbacks. Some other ISFP QBs have included Doug Williams, Daunte Culpepper, Chris Redman, Tony Banks, and Tee Martin.

Generally speaking, the following are a few of the many traits of the ISFP and ESTP playing QB (these can also be altered by other genetic and environmental factors):



energy level in life

mod. to low


peripheral vision

very good


seeing passing angles

very good


decision making (at QB)


very good

calling audibles

very good


Eli’s superiority over Peyton

Though Peyton’s ESTP (FEIR) BT has historically been the NFL’s best, we want to leave you with some of the areas where Eli’s inborn design is actually innately better than Peyton’s at QB. Ai??ISFPs’ gross motor superiority enables them to usually have the stronger arms, better body balance, and greater overall body durability–including taking hits when running or scrambling. ISFPs are also usually more personable and less critical of teammates, try to please coaches more, and are less likely to steal something out of a teammates locker. (ESTPs without good ethics tend toward kleptomania. 🙂

(end of BTIai??i??s comments)


Now back to the present and Carson Palmer. Regarding the 5 areas measured above with Eli and Peyton, JN offers his rating on CP:

Energy level in lifeai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??..moderate

Peripheral visionai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??.good

Seeing passing anglesai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??.good

Decision-making (at QB)ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??good

Calling audiblesai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??ai??i??..good

When CP is playing relaxed and properly accessing his right-brained spatial logic, he will perform as a good ISFai???Pai??? QB. The ISF cerebral factors will be working and heai??i??ll transition into the less comfortable (for him) right brain, not only seeing the field well but throwing and running smoothlyai??i??with superb rhythm and tempo. Achieving these traits will not come easily for CPai??i??if heai??i??s uptight.

On the other hand, CPai??i??s ISFJ wiring is actually innately superior to the ISFP genotype in such critical areas as self-discipline, work ethic, self-responsibility, studying plays, wanting to please others, team spirit, paying attention/listening, being aware of whatai??i??s going on, and even throwing mechanics. Nonetheless, if the ISFJ doesnai??i??t loosen up on the field, playing with fluidity and spatial awareness, heai??i??s in for a long day.

Do you recall QB Jon Kitnaai??i??s prediction on CP? He said, “I’m looking forward to watching what he does because he’s going to be everything people thought.”

Doesnai??i??t it make perfect sense to whole-heartedly believe the prediction of Jon Kitna (ISTP/BEIR) , one of the top QBs in the NFL, a proven, smart, and wily veteran?

On one side of the coin, CP will be everything people thoughtai??i??and more (mentally/attitude, physically and visually). On the other side, however, if fans are looking for Dan Marino, John Elway, Troy Aikman, or even Jim Kelly replicasai??i??CP is not designed like them nor will play as these 4 ESTPs didai??i??over the course of a career. Obviously, in some ways CP will, but in the ways outlined in this report, if you look carefully, JN believes you will see the differences. And by the way, ESTPs are hard to find nowadays in the NFL at QB; theyai??i??ve nearly vanished. The only 3 starting presently are Peyton Manning, Michael Vick, and Jake ai???The Snakeai??? Plummer.

Just How Does JN Evaluate Others?

Those unfamiliar with BT will be wondering, just how did JN come to the conclusion of CP possessing this so-called ISFJ/BEAL design? This answer is explained much more fully on this web site as to how JN assesses people, but for now, a short explanation is in order. As a botanist knows plants when he carefully analyzes them, so too, JN knows BT when he carefully evaluates them.

In the case of Ryan Leaf, JN went to and watched his private workout, throwing, etc.Ai?? JN also had dinner with Ryan and spent some time talking through matters. This is an optimal way for JN not only to assess the BT but also to gather additional ai???nurtureai??? aspects of oneai??i??s behavior that the person has developed over a lifetime. By doing this, JN can better tell you the variety or sub-category of each BT.

In the case of CP, JN had no such opportunity as he did with Ryan Leaf.Ai?? Not working for the Bengals in the 2003 draft, JN did not have a chance to evaluate himai??i??except for a short NFL Combine interview on video that Carson had done.Ai?? After seeing it, JN was uncertain as to CPai??i??s inborn design. As JN would say, CP was a harder ai???readai??? than normal. Since that time, JN has collected a half dozen or so taped interviews with Carson and the media, as well as watched a little college tape of Carson playing. He also saw CPai??i??s recent TV performance on the QB Challenge. Of course, this was just for fun, but it did demonstrate some of CPai??i??s inborn attributes.

These sources finally provided JN sufficient information to draw his conclusion. JN definitely found CP a harder ai???read,ai??? for a number of reasons. Perhaps the biggest was that JN didnai??i??t believe the odds were good that CP would have his ISFJ BT while achieving his college success.Ai?? JN had never seen it in football. Though JN knew it was possible, it was a long shot.Ai?? It becomes even a longer shot now at the pro level for CP to be voted MVP of the NFL, as were co-MVPai??i??s Peyton Manning and Steve McNair in 2003.

Another difficulty JN had in evaluating CP with limited information was that CP has done much to balance himself out as an ISFJ.Ai?? This speaks very well for Carson, his parents, and the others whoai??i??ve contributed in making him such an outstanding person, and QB thus far. BTI could not be happier with the likes of Carson Palmer in being ai???all that he can Heai??i??s not only a model for others sharing his same BT, but for all of us who havenai??i??t yet attempted or achieved our potential.

Closing the answer to how does JN evaluates others, JN is hopeful that it wonai??i??t be long before all BT can be evaluated through genetic analysis alone. With 2 genetic projects currently underway at BTI (soon BTI will show our readers some of our genetic work on the web) and a third to start soon, the old-fashioned ai???empiricalai??? method of assessing may soon be a thing of the past. In the meantime, JNai??i??s 30 years of learning how to decipher BT by speech, appearance, motor skills, and the like will have to suffice. We will add here, however, that JNai??i??s recent meetings and collaborations with neuroscientists regarding cerebral functions and BT have been most exciting and validating.Ai?? We will be unveiling this new brain information soon, on the web and in JNai??i??s upcoming new book, ai???Get the Most Out of Life: with your inborn Brain


BTI shares this information in order for those in the public to better understand why CP will perform as he does in the years ahead. On one side of the coin, we truly hope CP succeeds in the NFLai??i??achieving stardomai??i??and continues to defy and overcome his BTai??i??s sports tendencies. Unfortunately, this will be more difficult for him at the pro level (as it also was for R. Leaf). We hope, and so does JN, that he is proven wrongai??i??for CPai??i??s benefit. No one deserves accolades more than this mild-mannered and contrite ISFJ/BEAL BT.

On the other hand, we know BT to be true, and most of the time accurate and unique predictions can be madeai??i??both on and off the field of play.

In the meantime, JN and BTI are hopeful this evaluation will help others to have a more realistic expectation of CP and his NFL career. If he doesnai??i??t play as well as the vast majority predict, then weai??i??ve done a proper service for football fans to be more understanding and patient with CP.

If JN is wrong, those in the media or skeptics will then have a convenient noose to hang him byai??i??something that hasnai??i??t been there before. However, he knows BT to be authentic and soon to be proven by scientific evaluation, but in the meantime, he is willing to open himself up to criticism (as he has with RL and many other athletes) to demonstrate the predictive accuracy of BT. Yes, showing the exact genetic breakdown of each BT is the only way to prove 100% accuracy, whereas predicting a playerai??i??s future by JN can be loaded with minefields by the hundreds of extraneous factors (teammates, coaches, game plans, work habits, even what one had for breakfast!) that can skew the resultsai??i??even if JN is 100% correct on assessing the personai??i??s BT.Ai?? Predicting a playerai??i??s stardom like P. Manning, Tracy McGrady and others is even harder since an athlete can derail his or her upside along the way by counterproductive behavior or living, as well as by incompetent coaches, game plans, teammates, and so on.

JN believes he has accurately assessed CPai??i??s ISFJ/BEAL BT. On the other hand JN knows he hasnai??i??t seen other BEALs at pro QB (out of a few thousand NFL players over the years!) to corroborate his predictive claims. (Whereas JN had evaluated some 10 pro QBs with R. Leafai??i??s BT at the time of his assessment.) Nonetheless, JN has carefully measured how ISFJs have performed elsewhere in sports (and in all levels of football below the NFL at the QB position) and is taking this evidence and his knowledge of each BTai??i??s inborn mental, motor, and spatial skills to draw his conclusionsai??i??which didnai??i??t come easily.

To quote JN recently, ai???In my heart I believe Carson Palmer will become the best big quarterback to ever play in the NFL; from the long-held and typical football perspectives, heai??i??s got EVERYTHING going for him. Yet my head, and deeply scrutinizing ways, tell me the odds for this superlative success are limited. With great emotion I want Carson to be the unequivocal best, but my long study of inborn and individual differences forces me to conclude

JN realizes that the Bengals have planned to put CP in the best situation possible, minimizing mistakes and taking things slowly. Consider a comment by head coach Marvin Lewis recently concerning CP:

ai???The quarterback position will not lose games for this

This is good news for Carson, an optimal way to develop him. By minimizing pressure in the beginning, he will play his best. Also, by implementing something akin to a ai???West Coastai??? offense, with primarily shorter, more conservative passes to good receivers, CP will have his best chances for success. The long ball can still be thrown but passing mistakes will be kept to a minimum. New Englandai??i??s coach Bill Belichick has optimized Tom Bradyai??i??s abilities in similar fashion.

Of all BT, the ISFJ/BEAL is arguably the nicest, kindest and most thoughtful of all 16. One cannot but root for this BT to succeed in whatever they do. In fact, as JN often mentored ISFJs over his many years of youth and amateur coaching (in multiple sports), he always tried to put them in situations where they would most likely succeed. This BT needs much encouragement and support. They are innately humble and often self-deprecating. Brash ENTPs and ESTPs can often abuse ISFJs, taking teasing and bantering beyond reasonable limits.

JN wants us to remember, when relaxed, the ISFJ can throw the ball more accurately than and as deep as any BT; they can also have great body balance and big muscle control.Ai?? It might seem easier to defensive linemen and d-backs to knock down a rock-solid and mammoth oak tree than to take down CPai??i??when heai??i??s in his optimal (relaxed) playing mode. When he achieves this, heai??i??ll get off far more throws than other less durable QBs who easily get knocked off their feet. May Carson Palmer become the Jim Courier of tennis, a less than optimal BT for his sport or position within his sport (innately mentally, physically, and spatially), and perform at the highest level.

Weai??i??re hopeful that this article provides you with a fair and balanced BT perspective of Carson Palmer BEFORE his NFL playing days officially begin. (This coming weekend begins the NFL training camps, kicking off around Aug. 1, 2004.) Perhaps this will cause many to look deeper than the typical insights that are often offered regarding why a prominent athlete is performing as he or she does. Though much more could be written, this overview should suffice.

For a general ai???lifeai??? description of the ISFJ/BEAL, weai??i??ve included below a segment from JNai??i??s 400-page book, Your Key to Sports Success.


(Introversion, Sensing, Feeling, Judging)

(Back-brained, Empirical, Animate, Left-brained)


Behind many successful, high-powered men and organizations, one often finds the dependable, responsible, hard working ISFJ. ISFJs have a strong desire to be of service, to minister to individual needs, and to complete all work begun. To make things happen, they carefully follow handbooks and rules, trying to do everything themselves, tending to become overworked.

As a child, the ISFJ is quiet, obedient, loving, loyal, and hard working, regularly trying to please the teacher. ISFJs do chores, are on time, and rarely behave improperly.Ai?? They need routine, appreciation and gentle encouragement to venture out of their comfort zones, and recognition for consistency and diligence.

To ISFJs, work is good and must be finished before play can be enjoyed. They need to practice a skill alone before having the confidence to show it to others. They keep a few close friends, often for a lifetime, carrying a sense of history. They value tradition and loyalty.

The ISFJ is a devoted mate and family member, bringing up children to conform to societyai??i??s expectations. A diligent homemaker, the ISFJ is neat, orderly, thrifty, and practical, with a high sense of duty. Because ISFJs are so conscientious, they are apt to be judgmental toward nonconformists and those whose behavior disagrees with the standards of the ISFJ. They may be filled with resentment toward these people, while being attracted to them in order to help change them.

ISFJs are known to marry irresponsible persons with the goal of reforming them.Ai?? ISFJs are then often taken for granted or caught up in worry. Neglecting to take time off to have fun, they can develop anxiety and physical ailments. They may need encouragement to delegate some of the load they are carrying.Ai?? In the face of trials, they need to reach out and confide in others.Ai?? Wishing to please everyone can be a heavy burden.

Center stage and positions of authority over others are not enjoyed or sought by ISFJs. (It is rare to find an ISFJ whoai??i??s been bold enough to become well known.) Rather, they are outstanding executing jobs involving repeated sequential procedures with tangible results.Ai?? Though likely to take the first job offered them, they will do their best with it. They organize life around the people most important to them, usually family. Hopefully, they will not harbor intense feelings of being misunderstood or taken for granted, but will establish a positive lifestyle being a pillar of society, working loyally for the common welfare, and building a network of strong relationships.

ISFJ Sports Profile

ISFJs are Introverted left-brained SFs.Ai?? They enjoy participating in sports, though they are not found frequently in professional circles. In athletics, they exercise great control over their gross motor movements. Their legs are their mainstay, their greatest source of strength. If ISFJs work at it, they can be leapers with excellent vertical jump. For example, the NBAai??i??s Andrew Lang, Dale Davis, and P.J. Brown have been top notch shot blockers.


ISFJs normally show timidity and caution in athletics, just as they do in life. As they progress athletically, these factors become less of a problem, though something always to be faced.

Three typological preferences contribute to ISFJsai??i?? lack of aggressiveness: their Introversion is generally conserving energy, not expending it; their Feelings are seeking harmony, not contention; and their left-brained dominance (J) will not let them ai???jump in and ask questions

Sports that cause high levels of fear are unwelcomed by ISFJs. Young ISFJs do not like to face the hard throwing pitcher on the mound.Ai?? They may step into the batterai??i??s box, but they are not likely to crowd the plate.Ai?? Yet, if they are unafraid of the pitcher, they are capable of hitting the ball hard, using their body to generate power. Defensively in baseball, they are reluctant to charge the ball or stick their nose down to snag a hard grounder.

On the other hand, some ISFJs are found playing football. A few have even made it to the NFL, but the chances of them becoming household names are not high. The most likely position for NFL success is offensive tackle. One rare ISFJ with NFL stardom has been offensive tackle and All-Pro Richmond Webb. In 1997, the 6ai??i??6ai???, 300-pound Webb played in his seventh consecutive Pro Bowl. He was recognized as the prime protector on his Miami Dolphins team for superstar quarterback Dan Marino.

Basketball is a fun sport for ISFJs. They donai??i??t have to worry about a hard ball smacking them in the face but can enjoy playing with a ball that is much less intimidating.

Defensive Mentality

Basketball is a sport that especially demonstrates the defensive talents of ISFJs.Ai?? They play defense properly, using their strong, SF legs to keep the person theyai??i??re guarding from the basket.Ai?? Yet they need to work hard at developing lateral quickness. ISFJs are unselfish players, looking for ways to complement their teammates. They feel they can do this best by playing good defense. If ISFJs begin basketball at an early age and with good coaching, they can develop a finely-tuned offensive game.

Bowling and Horseshoes

Though infrequently found in professional sports, two sports where an ISFJ has been the absolute best is in bowling and horseshoes.Ai?? Walter Ray Williams Jr. has dominated off and on for over a decade on the Pro Bowlers Tour. Walter has captured the Player of the Year award four timesai??i??1986, 1993, 1996, and 1997.Ai?? In 1995, he was inducted into the PBA Hall of Fame.

To physically direct a heavy ball down a long wooden lane with pinpoint accuracy requires excellent body control. Walterai??i??s style is not right-brained graceful, but more mechanical, SFJ gross motor regulated. His mastery over the bodyai??i??s large muscles has made him durable and bowling proficient.

Amazingly, Walter is also regarded as the best horseshoe player in the world, having won the World Horseshoe Pitching Championships six times. Williams estimates that he throws a bowling ball about 40,000 times a year and a horseshoe some 15,000 times.Ai?? No Brain Type Grouping can endure these physical demands better than the SFs.Ai?? ISFJ Walter Ray Williams Jr. has used his inborn big-muscle control to perfection.

Type Tips

ISFJs need to be encouraged to be more aggressive in sports, particularly on the offensive end.Ai?? They need to realize it is okay to make mistakes; blunders are part of the process of sports maturation. Even the greatest athletes have their periods of failure.

ISFJs should become familiar with the mental section of this book.Ai?? Learning to relax and alleviate fear is crucial to their athletic success.

Like all dominant left-brained persons, ISFJs need to develop their spatial awareness.Ai?? Ways to do this are mentioned throughout this book.

If ISFJs can begin athletic activities at an early age, the more likely they are to succeed, not only by developing their motor skills but confidence and assertiveness as well.

Parents and coaches need to remember that ISFJs respond and learn best when they are treated with sensitivity, commended for their efforts, and encouraged to keep trying.


Basketball:Ai?? P.J. Brown, Dale Davis, Ervin Johnson, Nazr Mohammed, J.R. Henderson, John Coker,Ai??Ai??Ai??Ai??Ai??Ai?? Retired: Alton Lister, Andrew Lang, Acie Earl

Baseball:Ai?? Derreck Lee

Bowling:Ai?? Walter Ray Williams Jr.

Football:Ai??Ai?? Richmond Webb, Trezelle Jenkins


Since ISFJs rarely seek the limelight, few are household names in America. Conversely, ISFJsai??i?? opposite Type, the ENTP, normally seeks an audienceai??i??the reason so many are named in the ENTP profile.

Popular Career Choices:

Nursing, social service work, ministry, secretarial service, teaching (especially elementary level), counseling, child care, probation officer, veterinarian, physical therapy